Sunday was an historic day–IMHO NOT necessarily for the betterment of our Republic. Long before the affirmative votes taken by one political party late into the evening, I tweeted a couple of posts from Twitter, to facebook (and to LinkedIn) expressing some thoughts and opinions. What followed in responses and replies to them became rather interesting and spirited. The names of the participants have not been changed; I chose not to include surnames (but you can look them up if you really have to know who they are and wish to contact them. The principals are yours truly, Jordan and George. Others who chimed in will be mentioned by their given names as well.
Here’s how it all started, and how it blossomed into some interesting political (turning personal) fire and ire.
(All times MDT Sunday, March 21, 2010) 12:02 PM DeanoDean: OVERHEARD: Speaker Pelosi tells Hoyer: ‘Steny, we have to get to 217. None of these members wants to be the deciding vote’. DrudgeReport.com
12:04 PM DeanoDean: IF the issue were truly Health Care, why would NO ONE want to be the deciding vote? Is it possibly about Socialism and Federal Power? Hmm…
4:20 PM Jordan: I thought it was about the politics of blame. Isn’t that the established (and effective) way for the incumbants to be accused? Worked in 2008, I mean who easier to blame that Bush Jr.? Taking $5,000,000,000,000 of national debt and almost doubling it earns well deserved blame. But maybe that’s just Socialist talk… LOL
5:07 PM DeanoDean: My point has been the same for months. This is NOT about health care. It’s about socialism and gov’thanks power. Look at the start of entitlement policies and how they’re working.
All of them are by many times outspending their original projections. How’s Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid working to “save” money?
The projections to cover 32M people are at $960B over 10 years. I’ll be shocked if the Federal gov’t could do it for only 50% over budget. … See More
This makes us less free, period. There’s no opt out clause. We’re forced to buy insurance or pay penalties.
Historic day that changes the US for the worse.
5:30 PM Jordan: Chuckle. Overspending comes in many forms including military expeditions into guerilla quagmires and the unquenchable thirst for the latest and greatest (that would be most costly) war toys.
If the free market economy was truly able to provide a humane level of medical care to all of our citizens, it would have. But there’s no money in that, and… See More [sic] corporations are all about the profit. Yes, it is a burden for the free working folk of the U.S. to have to provide a minimum level of support for the poor. But they’re already paying through higher insurance premiums when uninsured process through E.R.s (at a much higher price), so why not handle it smart?
That would be CHOOSING to be accountable rather than having the choice made in a less efficient manner. It’s not socialism, it’s a social responsibility [sic].
5:51 PM DeanoDean: Couldn’t disagree with you more, Jordan.
First of all, we haven’t had “free markets” in the health insurance world for 30+ years (I was too young to really understand it. My father was a health care provider (dentist) and we experienced what happened when the government got involved in “paying” for services.)…
Look at “optional” health care and how well elective procedures have done. Quality has increased many fold while prices have come down dramatically. (e.g. cosmetic surgery, Lasik eye surgery–I love mine!)
I asked a guy who really likes the proposed public options a question: Where has the government done a really good job in holding down costs and being somewhat efficient in what it does? You’d love his answer: the IRS!
We agree that there is way too much waste in our military efforts. In this area, I much rather err because they keep us free. I still want the leadership in the armed services to be frugal. We have to be in our homes…
The economy in its current state DOES provide a HUMANE level of care—even if it were limited to ER services. The higher insurance premiums you talk about will be dream rates when we compare what it will cost us for this “fundamental change in America” our president wants. Socialism—because that’s what government health care is (whether it’s VA, Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, etc.).
We shouldn’t destroy the world’s BEST health care system–the place the rest of the world comes to, to get taken care of, where pharmaceuticals are developed, where the gold standard of care has been created–and dump it for socialized medicine! We simply won’t agree on this one.
We’re free to believe what we want. I just don’t like losing my freedoms and being forced into a plan where everyone will get the same poor care. It’s about power and control. I don’t like losing my agency to choose how I will take care of myself and my family.
6:36 PM Steve: I agree with you 100%, Dean.
8:00 PM Jordan: Unregulated corporations will generally favor profit over principle. Example: variable rates are charged to different patients based upon their insurance status. Walk in and pay cash and you’ll be charged the HIGHEST fees. Beautiful.
Or consider the unregulated activied of investment banks seeking windfall profits in sub-prime mortgages. Catestrophic bank failures leading to worldwide depression or government bailout leading to a softer landing are the choices after the fact. I’d rather choose fair minded regulation PREVENTING such nonsense.
Socialism? Nope. GOVERNANCE and OVERSIGHT…. See More
The W.H.O disagrees with your “BEST” ranking. They say that 36 other states come before us.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
But maybe they’re just kidding.
Hey, notice that Costa Rica is above us. You know… that’s where Rush is going to visit for treating his ticker. That’s cause medical care is affordable. Not here anymore.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/costa-rica/090321/another-reason-visit-costa-rica
Yup, the rest of the world is thronging at the doors of our hospitals. – you’ve gotta stop kiddin around, your jokes are killin me!
The GOP will never change healthcare, so someone else has to do it. I actually don’t think that this plan is the best solution, but given that the current system is impossible, some change trumps lame.
Sorry we can’t consensus. I wonder how much red vs blue conflict will happen in the next few years. We’ll meet up in a few years and have a beer together and see if the sky has fallen.
8:29 PM David: time for a house cleaning
8:31 PM DeanoDean: Sorry, again we disagree. I think ALL normal corporations want profit. Profit is GOOD!
There will be those who will do bad things. Regulation is appropriate. It’s in our real estate industry, it’s in the medical industry. I know that every medical practitioner I’ve ever gone to will charge me LESS if I pay cash… See More because they won’t have to deal with insurance companies or government officials if it’s Medicare, Medicaid…
The activities of the banking industry were the result of greed and selfishness, certainly. It was government officials who insisted that banks lend to people who had no business taking out mortgages. It was the bailing out of Freddie and Fannie that was very responsible for the effects we’re feeling now in the world of real estate, and the economy at large.
Government which is BY the people and FOR the people is also good. Unregulated power in the government corrupts even good people. I can’t think of anyone who has come back a better man or woman because they became acquainted with the ways of Washington, DC.
The nation’s leaders preach class hatred and warfare. We are only strong as a nation as long as there’s morality and moral leadership. Mark my words, if we continue down this path, we will experience limited freedom in what and how we receive health care services–even worse than what the left says we are in bondage to now. We will have created entitlements which will bankrupt us more than we already are. How will the panacea be financed? Take all of the GDP, we won’t have enough!
8:31 PM George: OK Jordan, name a government oversight program that is run effectively and cheaper than the private sector.TSA? Post Office? Medicare? Social Security? No on all counts.
9:13 PM DeanoDean: I recall the President’s own words numerous times that his HC program would not cost the Americans “one red cent, not another dime of tax increases”.
Obviously another lie, err misstatement of fact.
This won’t go well for his party (frankly unimportant–red or blue) come November…
What words can we trust which come out of the Presidential oral cavity? How about the “3,000% decrease” in insurance premiums business owners will realize, as boasted last week in Ohio? Probably a teleprompter malfunction–ya think?
9:13 PM Jordan: I ship USPS consistently [sic] because of it’s [sic] reasonable rates and effective service. Since my business has doubled in the past year, that would include daily shipments many of which are overseas. Do you think there’s something better, George? I mean if there’s something that I don’t understand about shipping, please bring me up to speed.
Hey, Dean… See More. Looks like it’s a done deal as of a few minutes ago. I bet the sky doesn’t fall. If I’m wrong, I buy the first round.
Let’s all see if the hysteria will fade away now that the GOP didn’t deal it’s crippling blow to the Demon-crats. Seriously foolish politics involved, both sides.
9:20 PM DeanoDean: Jordan, I appreciate your opinions even though we disagree. I’ve never said the sky will fall. The effect of today’s action will create another entitlement class which will bankrupt America, and really hurt the economy.
Time will prove me right because every welfare program has ballooned beyond expectations when originally drafted. No exceptions!
9:45 PM George: Jordan,
Holding the post office up as a model program really makes me wonder if you are serious. The U.S. Postal Service posted a net loss of $2.4 billion for its third quarter and said it expects to lose more than $7 billion by the end of the fiscal year. Our tax dollars bail it out. FedEx and UPS run profits, and do not take taxpayer money. Yeah, Jordan, there is obviously something better. This is why the Democrats are in trouble; they think like the post office.
9:54 PM Steve: Yep: What the Government claimed Medicare would cost us in 1990 – $12 Billion. What it actually cost us in 1990 – $107 Billion.
March 22, 2010 12:44 AM Gary: So what you’re really trying to say George is that my tax dollars are subsidizing Jordan’s business by his use of the USPS, whose “reasonalble [sic] rates” don’t adequately cover its “effective” costs. Sounds like socialism!
3:36 AM Jordan: I can’t speak to programs that I don’t have first hand experience with, but from what I’m hearing it sounds like you fellows aren’t shippers. Our shop makes real goods that we sell worldwide. Yes, I know manufacturers aren’t supposed to be able to survive in the US and we probably should join the crowd of money seekers by shipping our job overseas like all the others, but we prefer to live and work in the U.S. That’s choosing to make less but live right by our community providing local jobs. So old fashioned it’s almost Amish.
We ship using the most effective method, which for the last few years has been USPS. But before that it was FedEx, who by the way George, posted a nearly 1 billion dollar loss in the third quarter of last year. Why only 1 billion, because their operation is dwarfed by the USPS. Please stop pretending.
Now to your point, Gary. In the competitive market, a reasonable consumer goes with the best product that he can get for the best price. That’s why we use any particular shipping service. Basic economics, right? Well let’s try this on for size: Why is it that UPS and FedEx aren’t put out of business by the USPS? There’s a reasonable competition in package handling even if the USPS is mandated to handle the unprofitable (but necessary) business of letter delivery. So the concept that private ALWAYS beats public is claptrap…. See More
Let’s take that whole private vs. public things a step further. Why is it that the insurance industry was crying bloody murder when the “public option” was proposed. They claimed that they’d be put out of business by unfair competition. I’m sorry, I fail to see it in the context of the shipper example.
Gentleman, it’s clear that you we all have strong views on the subject. I’m sure you’re right and that I’m just deluded by thinking that some change is preferable to the absurd status quo. Health care reform is at this point, a given. The country will see change, the GOP will claim it’s horrible, the Demoncrats will claim it’s wonderful. Time will tell.
While it’s pretty fun for everyone to poke at each other with sticks, it’s running in circles. I’m going to sign off. If you’d like to rebut my points and claim victory with the last word, have at.
10:23 AM George: Really? Turn it around – why isn’t the USPS put out of business by FED Ex and UPS? Because the government will always step in and bail out the USPS with my tax money, and the govt prohibits private enterprise from delivering US mail. Sorry Jordan, your dog won’t hunt as they say.
10:55 AM Jordan: George, you old dog you lured me back in! Why don’t you enjoy this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UJGS_1oFXU and think on if you are willing to be part of the social contract that provides essential services. Personally I’d like granny up in the hills of Idaho to be able to get X-mas cards from the kids and have the postman stop in and say hi just to be sure she’s doing ok.
Out of the 4 choices you gave me, the only one I could pick was the post office, since all the otheres were entitlement programs and have no private company to compare to. And when I tell you that the postal service delivers good service at a good price you accuse them of stealing your tax dollars.
“The USPS has been independent of the government since 1971. The USPS is still though subject to some government controls and must break even over time with its budget. It does not draw any money from the federal budget for its regular operating budget but a few employees are still eligible to draw money from the old civil service system (CSRS) for their retirement.”… See More
Now I CAN’T believe you didn’t know this. You MUST be baiting me on purpsoe, right? Dean put you up to this. Ok, very funny. But the jokes over, I’m not playing anymore.
Oh wait, Tea Party… They protest but don’t know facts. Ok, if you are Tea Party accept my apology and continue on with your self-righteous indignation.
7:36 PM George: Sorry Jordan, you fail once again. The old dodge that the USPS recieves [sic] no tax dollars is a farce, it comes through government subsidies and monopolizing status. Here’s a link for the USPS government appropriations request, asking for federal money you claim they do not receive: http://www.usps.com/financials/_pdf/Appropriations2009_Final.pdf
Now … See More that I have thoroughly disproved your point, your heart warming granny raleted [sic] platitude has nothing to do with the fact that all government agencies are bloated, bureaucratic fiscally unsound behemoths. What business would still be functioning after operating at a deficit for so long? Only government agencies. The postal service is in debt over 7 BILLION dollars. That’s your model of success? I’ll remember that when you claim health care is a “success” too.
8:11 PM Jordan: hahaha. George is up to the jokes again! He confuses changes in technology, the economy, and demand with bloat. There is a statutory limit of how much the USPS may draw upon. When times are tough they use it, when times are good they pay it down. Do you know how much profit the USPS made in ’06? Nearly a billion. But that must be the bloat talking.
And that was with delivering postcards to granny and other worthy endeavors like brail mail to the blind. But no, those are something George would rather cancel. Why not take away grannys meds too? Make her go begging in the street.
Good for you buddy! Feel the love. … See More
I’m so done with you.
10:16 PM George: So now you admit they DO get taxpayer money, contrary top your earlier statement. Profit? Did you not read they are 7 billion in debt? Sorry Jordan, you are out of your league. You might fool the uninformed, but your arguments areas empty as is your president. You’re done because your logic came up short.
10:20 PM Jordan: It’s called a loan. Your knowledge is dim. Your waste my time with your teatime ignorance. I laugh at you.
11:00 PM George: And your lack of knowledge is substituted by demeaning insults. Typical lib.
NOW: It’s clear that we won’t see eye to eye on this between those who lean politically to the left, and those lean to the right. What is also clear is that this isn’t over by a long shot. (Because I lean to the right) I believe that freedoms have been taken away from everyone. Rights do NOT come from the government, and yet, the government leaders have granted rights in this legislation and have and will confiscate rights and money from the middle class.
I believe that the path to Socialism will dumb down the level of “health care” and progress we have today and give us more lines, fewer options, bureaucratic determination of what services we will be able to receive (death panels) because the system will be run by the Federal government. I’m a believer that NO government agency is run as well as that which could be run by the private sector because they have no motivation to be efficient or very effective. We have the rest of the world’s socialist systems which are standing proof that centralized control of citizens’ lives doesn’t work.
I sincerely pray that we’ll be able to turn this boat around before we get swept away into a system where “some animals are more equal than other animals”.
God bless America—we need it!
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Dean Crandall is a licensed REALTOR with Keller Williams Westfield Real Estate based in beautiful Utah County. He has six successful years of helping clients and friends find and sell homes, land and investment properties.
If you are a buyer and you want to find out how to get the best house out of all the houses that are available to you, or maybe you are a seller and you want to get absolute Top Dollar, and I mean more money bottom line that you could get any other way, or if you’re an investor who wants to generate an annual rate of return of 40-60%, that’s 40-60% Annual Rate of Return, please contact Dean directly:
Dean Crandall
801-836-3112
Dean@YsGuy.com
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Copyright® 2010, DeanoDean, Inc. “The Health Care Debate — Is it REALLY about Health?”
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